Edward II and the real world

Paul · Subject: Edward II and the real world Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:49 pm

I wonder how Edward saw his reign developing as events headed toward 1327? Was he going to grow old while Hugh dealt with the boring Kingly duties while he was off thatching, rowing, building walls, etc? Was he concerned about the ill feeling towards him with both noble and commoner due to Hugh's grasping ways, did he realise he was becoming more unpopular but not care or was he shut off in an ivory tower unaware of quite how bad things had become? I know when Isa invaded he attempted to raise support but was unable to do so, I'd love to know if it came as a shock to him that nobody rallied behind his cause.

I imagine that he CAN'T have realised how bad things had got, that he was happy for Hugh to take the things he didn't enjoy doing off his hands, little realising (or caring) that the nobles were incensed, the common people didn't care about him and his wife had grown to despise him. The fact that he let Isa go to France then let his son follow strikes me as being either naive or arrogant that he never dreamed they would come back to challenge his crown. I suppose hindsight is a wonderful things and Kings had never before been deposed as he eventually was, at least not since the Norman Conquest.

Alianore · Subject: Re: Edward II and the real world Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:31 pm

That's a fascinating question. I tend to think that Ed wasn't really that aware of how unpopular he was. As Hugh was his chamberlain and controlled access to him - in person and in writing - he could keep Ed from hearing anything he didn't want him to hear. I bet his lack of support in the autumn of 1326 came as something of a shock.

Ed's decision to send his son to France in Sept 1325 seems incredibly foolishwith hindsight, but he really had no other choice. He had to pay homage to Charles IV for Gascony, as otherwise it would be forfeit to the French king. He couldn't leave Hugh alone in England, as someone would have killed him in about 2 minutes, as happened to Gaveston in 1312 as soon as he was away from Edward. He couldn't take Hugh with him, as Hugh was hated in France (because of his piracy in 1321) and it was said that if he set foot in France, he'd be arrested and tortured. And he couldn't lose Gascony. So sending his son to pay homage on his behalf was his only real option. Of course he only had himself to blame for the fact that Hugh was so hated. But sending his son, even though I think he was aware of the danger, seemed the least of all evils.
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"Sans lui n'estoit rien fait, et par lui estoit tous fait, et le creoit li rois plus que tout le monde." Without him nothing is done and through him everything is done, and the king trusts him more than any other: Hugh Despenser the Younger and Edward II

Paul · Subject: Re: Edward II and the real world Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:15 pm

It does make you wonder that when it was a (too simply put I know) choice of putting Hugh at risk or putting his crown at risk he chose the latter.

Kate Plantaganet · Subject: Re: Edward II and the real world Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:47 pm

It is very interesting for us to see that is appears like a choice between Hugh and Edward's crown. I think he had no choice and had painted himself into a corner that he didn't know how to get out of. I don't imagine he saw the attack by Isa and Mortimer coming...do you? Or perhaps by the time it came it was too late to do anything about it. As we know hindsight is 20/20!

Paul · Subject: Re: Edward II and the real world Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:11 pm

No, I imagine he felt fairly secure and agree with Alianore that Hugh had probably sheltered him from the true feelings of the people.

I wonder if his feelings towards the man he had entrusted to run things changed when he found it impossible to drum up any support then eventually lost his crown (not to mention his life). I'm sure when he was told how Hugh was executed peoples attitudes must have started getting through to him.

elflady · Subject: Re: Edward II and the real world Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:48 pm

Hoped that all this new evidence piling up on king Edward's survival at least shaked (if not altered) your conviction, Paul!

Paul · Subject: Re: Edward II and the real world Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:47 am

I am very keen to read about the Earl of Kent's plot, there was always a little part of me that hoped he survived so I wouldn't say it was a conviction. I'm still leaning towards the thought that he died in 1327.

Still wish I could go back in time and give him a good shaking and say "GET RID OF HUGH HE'S GOING TO GET YOU KILLED MAN!". I'm sure Isabella and others had similar thoughts at some stage.

Alianore · Subject: Re: Edward II and the real world Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:42 pm

"GET RID OF HUGH HE'S GOING TO GET YOU KILLED MAN!"

LOL, I've been giggling about that since I read it. Wink

I wonder, even in the autumn of 1326 when it must have become blindingly obvious that most of his allies were deserting him, when he was wondering around South Wales with a handful of men, whether Edward ever thought "Hmmm, wonder if taking up with Hugh was a bad idea?"

Would love to know if he regretted it, or if he ever thought about sending Hugh away from him and trying to make peace with Isabella (before October/November 1326, that is - much too late then)
_________________
"Sans lui n'estoit rien fait, et par lui estoit tous fait, et le creoit li rois plus que tout le monde." Without him nothing is done and through him everything is done, and the king trusts him more than any other: Hugh Despenser the Younger and Edward II

Paul · Subject: Re: Edward II and the real world Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:31 pm

I suppose it depends how keen the King of France and Isabella's other allies were on getting rid of Edward? I'm sure it was a costly move providing troops, supplies, etc and by no means assured of success. I would've thought had a contrite Edward got rid of Hugh, appealed to save his marriage then some of Isa's support may have disappeared.

Mind you he had banished favourites and brought them back shortly afterwards all through his reign so how would he have ever been believed?

Alianore · Subject: Re: Edward II and the real world Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:48 pm

Interesting point! I wonder what would have happened to Isa and Mort's support if Ed had sent Hugh away. Certainly, Isa and Mort themselves had gone far too far to back out - for example, Isa betrothing the future Ed III to Philippa of Hainault without Ed's consent or permission, which she had no right to do. But honestly, I don't think it would have made much difference AFTER the invasion, and everyone knew by then that Ed II would always have favourites and that they'd always have an enormous influence on him. Even with Hugh gone (presumably dead, as he'd never have gone away into exile of his own accord) Ed's enemies could only assume that within a year or two, he'd have another favourite.
_________________
"Sans lui n'estoit rien fait, et par lui estoit tous fait, et le creoit li rois plus que tout le monde." Without him nothing is done and through him everything is done, and the king trusts him more than any other: Hugh Despenser the Younger and Edward II

Paul · Subject: Re: Edward II and the real world Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:59 pm

I just think that the religious conventions of the day would make it difficult to stage an invasion supporting a Queen and her lover against a King making moves towards reconciliation. Didn't you usually look to get some sort of papal backing before invading and ousting the ruler "annointed by God"?

Alianore · Subject: Re: Edward II and the real world Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:12 am

Some of the English bishops were uneasy about Isabella's relationship with Mortimer, and around Christmas 1326, when Ed II was being held at Kenilworth, suggested that Isabella should go back to her husband. However, Isabella and Mortimer's ally the bishop of Hereford claimed publicly that Isabella's life was in danger from Ed II - almost certainly a lie. If Isabella's life was in danger from anyone, it was Mortimer, who threatened to kill her 'with a knife or in some other way' when she suggested that she might go back to Edward, sometime in the spring or early summer of 1326.

Pope John XXII spent much of 1326 trying to effect a reconciliation between Ed and Isa, and sent nuncios into England.
_________________
"Sans lui n'estoit rien fait, et par lui estoit tous fait, et le creoit li rois plus que tout le monde." Without him nothing is done and through him everything is done, and the king trusts him more than any other: Hugh Despenser the Younger and Edward II

Paul · Subject: Re: Edward II and the real world Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:30 pm

I'm not a huge fan of Mortimer but can imagine he had cause to worry, if Isabella went back to Edward it would have been the end for him. Her life probably wasn't in danger from Edward but I'm sure there would've been a small damp room in a Nunnery with her name on the door.

Where was Edward III for most of the time between 1327 and 1330?

Alianore · Subject: Re: Edward II and the real world Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:43 pm

Yes, his invasion would never have come to anything without her, or more importantly, her son.

Edward III was all over the country in those years - as with all kings, he travelled a heck of a lot. So always at court, always visible, just powerless!
_________________
"Sans lui n'estoit rien fait, et par lui estoit tous fait, et le creoit li rois plus que tout le monde." Without him nothing is done and through him everything is done, and the king trusts him more than any other: Hugh Despenser the Younger and Edward II

Paul · Subject: Re: Edward II and the real world Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:29 pm

....no doubt standing in the background looking maliciously at the back of Mortimer's head whispering "you'll get yours pal" under his breath....

It is odd that people of that reign in particular seem so short sighted and sure of their power that they never imagined that things would all end so badly.

* Edward, amongst other things, during the coronation and marriage went out of his way to insult Isabella and her family showering Piers with gifts and affection. Not the best start to a marriage that would end about as badly as it ever possibly could for a King.

* Piers insulted and showed contempt towards the Earls who would later kill him.

* the Earl of Lancaster forever alienated Edward after having Piers killed and would end up executed.

* Hugh, say no more.

* Mortimer, had Hugh killed then made every mistake Hugh had already made, disrespecting the rightful King in the process = executed also.

Edward III must have had a great deal going for him as it is a common theme with those listed above that no matter how much they despised whoever was ruling at the time they could all manage to do a worse job themselves when they took control. Edward III's successor didn't fare too well either!