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Anejre

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PostSubject: Re: Piers Gaveston   Fri May 09, 2008 10:10 pm

Anejre: thanks a lot for all the posts on the Hamilton and Chaplais books. As far as I know, the silver forks for eating pears definitely belonged to Piers (according to C. M. Woolgar's book on great households of late medieval England). The man was not lacking in style.

I'm sure I've read somewhere that the Irish were amazed at Piers eating pears with a fork. Stylish sums up Piers - yeah, they just had to be his - and I'm sure he used them very elegantly Cool
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Anejre

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PostSubject: Re: Piers Gaveston   Fri May 09, 2008 10:18 pm

It's a shame that even today, historians repeat myths about Ed and Piers cited in 14c chronicles

yes, Alianore - it seems that for some historians, those 'stories' are just too good not to keep on repeating. They become accepted as fact.
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PostSubject: Re: Piers Gaveston   Fri May 09, 2008 10:56 pm

Thanks for the recommendations, Alianore, the books are worth it if I'm lucky enough to find them!


Thanks again, Anejre! Lancaster King Arthur, pfff! You're right, to take a prisoner out of custody and summarily execute him without any authority is not exactly a deed in the code of chivalry, to say the least! The same for what Despenser did with Roger's prisoner!

What documentation Question We might try to translate it!
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PostSubject: Re: Piers Gaveston   Sat May 10, 2008 8:25 pm

Hi Elflady - Chaplais' documentation - well, it consists of Lancaster's inventory from Newcastle - Hamilton publishes it in English, which makes it easier for us non-latin scholars! Smile Chaplais also publishes a Latin document written by Roger de Aldenham, concerning Piers patronage. There's bound to be a translation of it already. I just wish he had published the English version in full as well!
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Anejre

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PostSubject: Re: Piers Gaveston   Sat May 10, 2008 8:27 pm

When you think, this period in history is often called 'The Age of Chivalry' - read any history book and you realise it was far from it. In many ways, I am relieved that Piers didn't suffer the execution of Despencer - so revolting - but then Piers hadn't really done anything.
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Anejre

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PostSubject: Re: Piers Gaveston   Sat May 17, 2008 8:09 pm

I'm about halfway through Paul Doherty's 'Prince of Darkness'. I'm trying to read it as its 'genre' - a murder/mystery, so no peeking at the end. Edward and Piers, so far, seem to be 'the baddies' - particularly Piers, who is almost demonic! Yet still rather handsome king
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PostSubject: Re: Piers Gaveston   Sun May 18, 2008 6:42 pm

Will be interested to hear what you think about it overall, Anerje. I liked some parts of it - Edward is depicted pretty well - but all the inaccuracies put me off, and the character of Piers is decidedly odd! The scene with his dogs...oh my. Having said that, I do like how Doherty portrays their relationship (I think - it's ages since I read it!)

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Anejre

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PostSubject: Re: Piers Gaveston   Mon May 19, 2008 10:06 pm

lol! yes, the scene with the dogs was a bit, erm, strange! I did like the banquet scene before it though, with Ed and Piers only having eyes for each other. They obviously really love each other. 'Hugh' definitely softened towards Ed as the book went on. I guessed the murderer, but not the motive. Doherty is a bit repetative with some phrases, (everyone chewed their lip!) and yes, the chronology is out, but I took it only as a 'murder/mystery'. I liked the descriptions of 'old London'.

Hmmm, now to select the next Ed with lashing of Piers book king
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Anejre

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PostSubject: Re: Piers Gaveston   Mon May 19, 2008 11:00 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Piers Gaveston   Wed May 21, 2008 2:01 pm

Hi, Anejre! What monument is that? Someone's tomb? Sorry for asking, I've never visited England!
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PostSubject: Re: Piers Gaveston   Wed May 21, 2008 2:43 pm

Elflady: it's a monument erected in the 19th century to mark the spot of Piers' death, I mean, murder. It describes him as the "minion of a hateful king". *Gnashes teeth*

Anerje's posted some more pics of it in the Warwick Castle thread, in the Fourteenth Century Life sub-forum.

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PostSubject: Re: Piers Gaveston   Thu May 22, 2008 12:04 pm

Thanks!

Great pics, Anejre!
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Anejre

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PostSubject: Re: Piers Gaveston   Thu May 22, 2008 8:37 pm

Oops, I meant to post it in the Warwick castle thread. I'm going to Warwick in August, and am going to search for the monument. I'd be amazed if it was the actual site of Piers' murder, but obviously near enough. I gather the local wooded area is called Gaveston's wood. Warwick must have taken fright because he marched Piers almost a mile and a half from Warwick castle and he was murdered on Lancaster's lands. 'The Black Hound' didn't even attend - hid in his castle, probably!

I've tried looking for the monument before, but only had a brief 20 mins to find it, and I gather it's difficult to find - yes, even at that size! Hope I can take my own pic:)


Last edited by Anejre on Thu May 22, 2008 8:40 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Piers Gaveston   Thu May 22, 2008 8:39 pm

Alianore, the inscription sounds like typical Victorian melodrama! Wouldn't it be nice to have a decent inscription?
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PostSubject: Re: Piers Gaveston   Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:55 pm

Completed Doherty's 'The Poison Maiden' - and am much happier at the portrayal of Piers in this novel. He's not 'The Prince of Darkness' - indeed, he smiles alot, is charming and is very handsome. There's speculation about Ed and Piers' relationship, and it's touching how Isabella viewed their relationship as them almost being one and the same - for Ed, Piers is 'home'. Won't spoil the novel by revealing who the Poison Maiden is - but well worth a read.
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PostSubject: Re: Piers Gaveston   Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:06 pm

Just read Alianore's excellent post on the blog today. I'm sure Piers would have approved of it! Hadn't realised that Piers remained unburied for so long despite the fact that his excomminication had been lifted. Edward must have suffered terribly if he could not stand to bury him. I know he'd sworn vengeance, but I don't think that was the whole the story. He just couldn't bear to be separated from Piers. It's very poignant.
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PostSubject: Re: Piers Gaveston   Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:12 pm

And thank goodness Piers' head and body were reunited! I take it we can believe the chronicles that his head was sewn back? I wonder why this was done? And how cowardly for Warwick to hide in his castle!
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PostSubject: Re: Piers Gaveston   Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:20 pm

Thanks, Anerje! I do hope Piers would have approved - as I said in my email, I'm sure he'd be glad to know that the two of us are doing our best to keep his memory alive. Wink

I'd agree that the main reason for the very late funeral was that Edward couldn't bear to put him in the ground - not only the revenge issue.

I don't have the source to hand, but yes, I'm pretty sure we can believe the story that Piers' head was sewn back on. Either on Ed's orders, or the Dominicans (who were great supporters of Ed, and vice versa) did it of their own accord because they knew that's what he'd want.

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"Sans lui n'estoit rien fait, et par lui estoit tous fait, et le creoit li rois plus que tout le monde." Without him nothing is done and through him everything is done, and the king trusts him more than any other: Hugh Despenser the Younger and Edward II
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Anejre

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PostSubject: Re: Piers Gaveston   Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:47 pm

It was such a rare thing to do, that yes, I thnk it must be true. And Ed wold certainly have wanted Piers to have his head and body reunited. He must have preserved the body really well to. He must have been in so much torment and despair to 'keep' Piers so long. Thank goodness he was able eventually to have Piers buried.

I wonder how he dealt with the death of Despencer - I mean, in it's horror. I'm sure he had the details recounted to him.
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PostSubject: Re: Piers Gaveston   Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:25 pm

Anerje - yes, I'm sure he did - how horrible. One of the men present when he was forced to abdicate was William Trussell, who had sentenced Despenser to death.

I've written about it on the blog, but here's another mention: David Pownall's novel The Ruling Passion, about Ed and Piers, is due out on 29 July 2008. Can't wait!!!

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"Sans lui n'estoit rien fait, et par lui estoit tous fait, et le creoit li rois plus que tout le monde." Without him nothing is done and through him everything is done, and the king trusts him more than any other: Hugh Despenser the Younger and Edward II
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Anejre

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PostSubject: Re: Piers Gaveston   Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:14 pm

Neither can I! I shall put in my order this weekend. Just what I need to read over the summer holiday:) Fingers crossed it's a positive portrayal!
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PostSubject: Re: Piers Gaveston   Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:05 am

I'll be rather cross if it isn't, haha! Wink Just as long as it's not the usual stereotypical portrayals, though...

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Anejre

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PostSubject: Re: Piers Gaveston   Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:57 pm

Yes, as long as it doesn't resemble a recent Ed/Piers novel I had the misfortune to read recently......

I'm almost near the end of 'The Cup pf Ghosts' - and am amazed that Doherty can be responsible for the awful portrayal of Piers in 'The Prince of Darkness' when he's so much better in the 'Mathilde' novels - he's even different physically. Main gripe about this novel - had to wait until almost half way through before Piers made his entrance. But once again, I'm enjoying Doherty's portrayal of 'old London town'.
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PostSubject: Re: Piers Gaveston   Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:12 pm

Piers is Perfect! - as we all know jocolor

(I wanted the 500th post on this forum sunny )
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PostSubject: Re: Piers Gaveston   Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:22 pm

Not impressed with this from the BBC site!

Just zis Guy, you know?

Guy's Tower takes its name from the 10th Earl of Warwick, Guy de Beauchamp. Born in 1272 at Elmley Castle in Worcestershire, Guy was the son of William de Beauchamp and Maud Fitzjohn. William was a celebrated military commander who served King Edward I, and it seemed that his son was to follow in his footsteps. When his father died in 1298, Guy became the Earl of Warwick and was a notable member of the king's forces at the Battle of Falkirk. Guy was a strong leader in combat, with tales of a fight with a knight called Coebrand (by all accounts a giant who could never be slain) becoming local legend.

He also had his fair share of wives. His first marriage was to Isabella de Clare in 1297, but they divorced. He then married Alice Flamstead, but this did not last either. On 12 February, 1309 he married Scottish heiress Alice de Teoni, who bore him heirs of his own. Guy was also quite a political force, and with a group of friends formed a collective known as the Ordainers. This 14th-Century gang of earls used their power and influence to try and gain some control over how King Edward II ruled the country when he came to power in 1307.

Edward II was seen as a weak and useless king, all the more so for the rumours of his affair with another man, Piers Gaveston. A Gascon knight, the first Earl of Cornwall and something of a smarmy git, Gaveston was the 'favourite' at court. When Edward was still the Prince Regent, his friend Gaveston found it funny to give the other earls nicknames. Some of them received monikers such as 'Whoreson', while Guy de Beauchamp was teased for his dark complexion, becoming 'The Black Dog of Arden'. Edward took great delight in Gaveston's wit and the ridicule of the other men at court, so much so that in 1308 when the new king left for France to marry Isabella, the daughter of King Philip IV of France and Queen Jeanne of Navarre1, he left Gaveston in charge.

This didn't go down too well with the Ordainers (especially Thomas Plantagenet, the 2nd Earl of Lancaster), and when the newly-married Edward returned from France, rumour of an unsanctimonious relationship between Piers and Edward flourished. Especially after Gaveston took to wearing royal purple robes, hung off the king's arm at the coronation and slept in his chambers that very night! For this, Gaveston was banished from court, apparently leaving Edward unconsolable.

In 1312, Gaveston attempted to return to Edward's side, having been promised his life would be safe. However, the Ordainers got a hold of him first, and Guy supposedly barked at the wayward man:

The Black Dog of Arden is come to keep his oath which he was sworn, that you should one day feel his teeth.
Under the impression that Gaveston had broken the agreement of his banishment, Thomas Plantagenet, along with Guy, made the exile their prisoner and took him to Warwick Castle on the 10 June, 1312. Here, in the Great Hall, a rather quick trial by Gaveston's peers (the Ordainers) was undertaken. Death was the sentence, and on the 19 June the knight of Gascon was promptly marched, kicking and screaming, to Blacklow Hill where he was beheaded. On hearing the news, Edward was again unconsolable, crying into his sleeves.

Guy was later pardoned in 1313 for his part in capturing Gaveston, but the damage was done. His relationship with the king was a tense one, and he also later refused to take part in the Scottish military campaigns of 1314, perhaps in consideration for his wife and respecting her heritage. On 12 August, 1315 he suddenly died. There were rumours of him being poisoned, but at the age of 43 he had fared quite well, surviving a few battles, a few wives and no doubt other countless attempts on his life over the years.
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